The sister told him about the children. She said they were staying with their grandmother (their father’s mother), and, pleased that his dispute with her husband had come to an end, she began telling him how her children played that they were travelling, just as he used to do with his three dolls, one of them a negro and another which he called the French lady.
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“你还记得吗?”聂赫留朵夫笑眯眯地说。
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"Can you really remember it all?" said Nekhludoff, smiling.
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“你看,他们的玩法跟你从前一模一样。”
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"Yes, and just fancy, they play in the very same way."
The unpleasant conversation had been brought to an end, and Nathalie was quieter, but she did not care to talk in her husband’s presence of what could be comprehensible only to her brother, so, wishing to start a general conversation, she began talking about the sorrow of Kamenski’s mother at losing her only son, who had fallen in a duel, for this Petersburg topic of the day had now reached Moscow.
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拉戈任斯基表示不赞成把决斗致死排除在普通刑事罪之外。
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Rogozhinsky expressed disapproval at the state of things that excluded murder in a duel from the ordinary criminal offences.
This remark evoked a rejoinder from Nekhludoff, and a new dispute arose on the subject. Nothing was fully explained, neither of the antagonists expressed all he had in his mind, each keeping to his conviction, which condemned the other.
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拉戈任斯基觉得,聂赫留朵夫谴责他,蔑视他的全部工作。他想对聂赫留朵夫指出,他的观点是完全错误的。
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Rogozhinsky felt that Nekhludoff condemned him and despised his activity, and he wished to show him the injustice of his opinions.
Nekhludoff, on the other hand, felt provoked by his brother-in-law’s interference in his affairs concerning the land. And knowing in his heart of hearts that his sister, her husband, and their children, as his heirs, had a right to do so, was indignant that this narrow-minded man persisted with calm assurance to regard as just and lawful what Nekhludoff no longer doubted was folly and crime.This man’s arrogance annoyed Nekhludoff.
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“那么,这类事法院会怎么处理呢?”聂赫留朵夫问。
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"What could the law do?" he asked.
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“法院会判处决斗中的一方服苦役,就像普通的杀人犯那样。”
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"It could sentence one of the two duellists to the mines like an ordinary murderer."
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聂赫留朵夫又双手发凉,他情绪激动地讲起来。“嘿,那又怎么样?”他问。
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Nekhludoff’s hands grew cold."Well, and what good would that be?" he asked, hotly.
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“那就伸张了正义。”
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"It would be just."
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“这么说,法院活动的目的就是伸张正义罗,”聂赫留朵夫说。
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"As if justice were the aim of the law," said Nekhludoff.
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“还有什么别的目的呢?”
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"What else?"
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“维护阶级利益。照我看来,法院只是一种行政工具,用来维护现存的有利于我们阶级的制度罢了。”
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"The upholding of class interests! I think the law is only an instrument for upholding the existing order of things beneficial to our class."
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“这倒是一种全新的观点,”拉戈任斯基若无其事地笑着说。“一般认为法院是另有使命的。”
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"This is a perfectly new view," said Rogozhinsky with a quiet smile; "the law is generally supposed to have a totally different aim."
"Yes, so it has in theory but not in practice, as I have found out. The law aims only at preserving the present state of things, and therefore it persecutes and executes those who stand above the ordinary level and wish to raise it--the so-called political prisoners, as well as those who are below the average--the so-called criminal types."
"I do not agree with you. In the first place, I cannot admit that the criminals classed as political are punished because they are above the average. In most cases they are the refuse of society, just as much perverted, though in a different way, as the criminal types whom you consider below the average."
But Rogozhinsky, a man not accustomed to be interrupted when he spoke, did not listen to Nekhludoff, but went on talking at the same time, thereby irritating him still more.
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“说法院的宗旨在于维持现存制度,这我也不能同意。法院有法院的宗旨,那就是要么改造……”
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"Nor can I admit that the object of the law is the upholding of the present state of things. The law aims at reforming--"
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“关在监狱里改造,真是太好了,”聂赫留朵夫插嘴说。
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"A nice kind of reform, in a prison!" Nekhludoff put in.
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“……要么去掉威胁社会生存的道德败坏分子和兽性难驯的家伙,”拉戈任斯基固执地继续说。
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"Or removing," Rogozhinsky went on, persistently, "the perverted and brutalised persons that threaten society."
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“问题就在于现在的社会既不能做到这一点,也不能做到那一点。现在的社会是无能为力的。”
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"That’s just what it doesn’t do. Society has not the means of doing either the one thing or the other."
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“这话什么意思?我不明白,”拉戈任斯基勉强装出笑容说。
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"How is that? I don’t understand," said Rogozhinsky with a forced smile.
"I mean that only two reasonable kinds of punishment exist. Those used in the old days: corporal and capital punishment, which, as human nature gradually softens, come more and more into disuse," said Nekhludoff.
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“哦,这种话从您嘴里听到真是新鲜得很。”
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"There, now, this is quite new and very strange to hear from your lips."
"Yes, it is reasonable to hurt a man so that he should not do in future what he is hurt for doing, and it is also quite reasonable to cut a man’s head off when he is injurious or dangerous to society. These punishments have a reasonable meaning.
But what sense is there in locking up in a prison a man perverted by want of occupation and bad example; to place him in a position where he is provided for, where laziness is imposed on him, and where he is in company with the most perverted of men? What reason is there to take a man at public cost (it comes to more than 500 roubles per head) from the Toula to the Irkoatsk government, or from Koursk--"
"Yes, but all the same, people are afraid of those journeys at public cost, and if it were not for such journeys and the prisons, you and I would not be sitting here as we are."
"The prisons cannot insure our safety, because these people do not stay there for ever, but are set free again. On the contrary, in those establishments men are brought to the greatest vice and degradation, so that the danger is increased."
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“您是说,这种惩治制度必须加以改进。”
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"You mean to say that the penitentiary system should be improved."
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“改进是不可能的。改良监狱花费的钱会超过国民教育的经费。这样就会给人民增加负担。”
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"It cannot he improved. Improved prisons would cost more than all that is being now spent on the people’s education, and would lay a still heavier burden on the people."
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“不过,即使惩治制度有缺点,也不能因此就废除法院,”拉戈任斯基又不听内弟的话,继续讲他自己的观点。
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"The shortcomings of the penitentiary system in nowiseinvalidate the law itself," Rogozhinsky continued again, without heeding his brother-in-law.
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“那些缺点是无法克服的,”聂赫留朵夫提高嗓门说。
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"There is no remedy for these shortcomings," said Nekhludoff, raising his voice.
"Yes; that would be cruel, but it would be effective. What is done now is cruel, and not only ineffective, but so stupid that one cannot understand how people in their senses can take part in so absurd and cruel a business as criminal law."
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“可我就参与了这工作,”拉戈任斯基脸色发白说。
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"But I happen to take part in it," said Rogozhinsky, growing pale.
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“那是您的事。但我不能理解。”
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"That is your business. But to me it is incomprehensible."
Nekhludoff noticed a peculiar glitter under his brother-in-law’s spectacles. "Can it be tears?" he thought. And they were really tears of injured pride. Rogozhinsky went up to the window, got out his handkerchief, coughed and rubbed his spectacles, took them off, and wiped his eyes.
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45
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他回到沙发旁,点着一支雪茄,不再说什么。
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When he returned to the sofa he lit a cigar, and did not speak any more.